Saturday, 24 August 2013

Alessandro: Before Language The Concept Of I Was Not Present

This was an interesting conversation. It took me a while to make this readable, as English is not Alessandro's first language. Neither is mine, so i could understand him. This was great investigation and of course, it ended up in seeing. Happy to share this with everyone.


Hi Ilona!
For about one year now I'm reading your work on the internet and I even tried forum, i had a long session with Yari on LU where i got stuck at the point: " now you have to see this directly "..
I'm still here and i came to the conclusion that this is something "i" can't do.
If me, Alessandro, is living just in the thoughts and after these thoughts there is nothing/only life, how can I see this?
I can only come at the conclusion that me is a thought living in concepts and refers the spontaneous happening to a virtual I but this doesn't end in a different perspective of life, unfortunately.
Just wanted to share this with you!
Have a nice day,

July 30

Hi Alessandro, thanks for message and sorry for delay with answer.
Yes, I, a thought, can not do anything. And there is no I that thought points to, it's a concept, not an entity. It is not living in concepts, it is a concept. And it's a useful one, for sure. But there is no virtual I.. Same way as there is no virtual Santa.
What comes up here, when you read this?
What do you expect that should happen?
Take a close look at expectations. What do you think that should be different then what is?

July 31

Hi Ilona!
Thank you, thank you! So nice to have the possibility to share a little with you!
What comes up?
I, I, I..since this I is born seems that all thoughts refer to a ME and this me is a link to this sense of presence as my body/mind. When you ask me who are you? The first thoughts come up and point to the body - with a me driving it from the mind. I can watch all this and see that this i is a reference and not a separate entity but the concept/ belief in a me as this body/ mind remains in the background.
Memory, patterns of thoughts, personality, all thoughts in the end, come up in the scene together with this sense of me separate from you.
Where this separation is taking place? Only in thoughts, seems, but this sense of ME doesn't stop also if this is only a believed thought.
The expectation is to finally enter the gate and realize clearly what are thoughts and what is the reality after that!
With love,


Focus on sense of aliveness, being, is it personal? Is it i? Is it a separate entity? Does this sense disappear if you don't name it I?
Take a look, where thoughts come from? Are you doing the thinking or thoughts appear and disappear by themselves? Do you know what the next thought will be?

August 1

I is not personal, Ilona. I is labeled as personal, i can (label) it as ME but all this labeling maybe appear after a feeling of simply being, maybe other thoughts come as beliefs, maybe other concept enter in the scene and maybe i focus so much in following this thoughts that the sense of presence is covered, but if i see all this with a distance i can't refer this sense of presence, this aliveness to any label. Labels are seen as concepts without self, only thoughts, words.

Without any concept the aliveness is not personal, is just life.

Take a look, where thoughts come from? Are you doing the thinking or thoughts appear and disappear by themselves? Do you know what the next thought will be?

where thoughts come from I don't know really, what I can see is that they for sure are not my creation even if they refer to an hypothetical me, this me doesn't really exist, is not to find in reality. There can be thoughts and these thoughts can refer to an I and via this believing in a ME  can come other thoughts which contains concepts as "I think, i do" etc. but i can not say that I'm doing the thinking. the thinking comes together with the situation always in the present moment, this present moment seems to be the only truth.

Good stuff. Thank you.
Ok, so what do you expect to happen?

Thank you, Ilona. Thank you for your time, it's a gift, really.
Once I started to look close at this ME, i understood a bit that this voice talking all time in the head is only a voice. It's like if I can't trust or believe my self anymore just because this self is not more clear witch is/ what is.
I feel like i'm in a process of elimination of what is untrue and if there is an expectation about it- finish the job once and for all.

Yes, it all starts with cutting trough all the bullshit that we are used to believing. When you feel that it is enough of lies and all you want is truth, truth reveals itself. Elimination of beliefs one by one is a hard process, you can hit the bulls eye and focus on one question only- is there an i? In experience, right here right now? What happens when you ask this question?

Less than 2 thoughts, one: there is no I , second there is, it's me; after this two thoughts only sounds, feelings in the body, this typing to you, objects around, no I found here in reality.

Where is i found?

It's not found at all!
There is talking about it but is living also not in thoughts, is a concept, a number of thoughts refer to this I and the story is only believed because we never question where this I is in reality. We believe it until we go to search for it and see that it's no where.

This I is living in thoughts is also a concept, we have to admit that this I is also coming and going like all thoughts, and what comes and goes can not be permanent, actually what never moves and that always remains is also between two thoughts, the truth.

Is i coming and going like a thought or is it a thought?

Thought! actually a word said in a thought, nothing more than that.

Yes!! Can you say that it is clear, there is no i at all in reality?

Yes! Yes! I can say that.
Where this I can be?
I is a thought and as thought it's not real.

how does it feel to see this?

Very strange, it's like seeing that thoughts are coming in the present moment as everything else, there is no possession, no owner of nothing, just life flowing with it's content.
Actually the content is life it'self without owner!

What was the last thing that pushed you over?

There is no I at all, simple!
Stop talking about Santa or not?

hahaha, Santa is real.

You were right, nothing changes as it always been like this!

Yes, exactly. All is as it is. It's a shift in perception.
How would you describe this to someone that is curious?

Hi, want to share this:
There is no self, no I, only life,
always changing, never moving.
There is not separation at all, it's a concept, not separated self.
Can't be subtraction nor addition, indivisible one life.
One life in this present moment.
With love,

Hi Ilona,
Sometimes i disappear, no thoughts or body appear.
Then they come back and also the concept of time.
It is very difficult to put that in words but also the time is seen as a concept and in the end unreal.
And  also when the show runs again it's seen that there is no such thing as personal.
Like life is one, it's content is also not separate, how can be?

Yes, you describe it well.
Where are you from? What is your native language?

Good morning!!
I'm italian but is now 10 years i'm living in Holland..
Thank you Ilona!

Nothing changes in a sense because life runs as always with all it's content.
This is happening all the time but now is seen as empty.
It's empty and full at the same time.
Seeing it's emptiness brings a sense of lightness because it's seen that there is nothing to grasp, no goal as there is not doer.
Have a nice day!!

August 4
I got such a heavy mind from yesterday when I had a deep confrontation with my girlfriend.
She got a big reaction when i told her that she does't exist and she answered me that i got an ego trip, and that if she didn't then how about our child, the little one, how to take care of him?
It was too late to tell her that life takes care of everything including her reaction to the situation and even her mind and thoughts at that moment.
I don't know anymore if the gate is passed or if the identification was really be broken, Ilona.

August 6
Hi ale, how is everything? Is there any doubt at all? I think we should wrap this up and if you want to join support groups, we got to finish the process.

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for your interest in my case, I give thanks every day for that.
How is everything ?
It's chaotic really, the mind fights with itself like if it's now split into two and on one side there is a lot of questioning and on the other side there are answers, like a monologue between the mind. If at one side little clarity comes, even that clarity is discussed internally and it causes a lot of stress.
Yesterday evening in bed I could not sleep so the mind was full of nothing.
it was seen as all the craziness streaming and also how much power the ego has to control and manipulate the situation.
If I agree that all this is empty on the other hand the mixture of thoughts and feelings in the body seems to win the battle.
I felt not able to just watch but got more involved within the bad situation.
Also i got lost in this thought:
If this voice (this voice that always had the power of control and cover the moment) is not me, where is me?
How can I contact the real self?
If mind is mind and ego is projection,
Why all this questioning, how to look without Mind?
Yes, is time to finish this if that is even possible, tell me what to do, can I stay please with you in this process?
My life is very busy, i got 4 kids, two are less than 2 years old and i work hard for my family. After this I can invest every moment free i have to explore the truth.
With love

You say "this voice that always had the power of control and cover the moment" take a look, had this voice actually ever had control, or just claimed control? Is this voice controlling what is happening right now?
There is no real self to be found. There is no false or real self, none as in zero.  You don't contact the real self, but investigate if there is a real self.

There is no ego either.

Neither such entity as mind. There are only thoughts arising one after another, one at a time.
How to see without mind? Just look, feel, sense, experience. Thinking is too part of what is going on, but it's not the whole experience. There is experience happening through the senses. Take a look, is there a self in seeing? in hearing? in tasting, smelling, touching? or is it just a thought?

August 6

you say "this voice that always had the power of control and cover the moment" take a look, had this voice actually ever had control, or just claimed control? is this voice controlling what is happening right now?"
Actually this voice claims control all the time, this voice that calls itself "me" pretends to be the owner of the action and reaction, that the body mind displays in this exact moment.

Doing this all the time and reinforcing this with all the thoughts, there is the feeling that a separate self exist.
This voice actually and the me are same, only voice is telling me in the end, only discontinuous voice telling me.
Labeling all the objects around is a way to give them a standard model, a concept.

In this way what is seen, actually from nobody, gives also the feeling of knowing and referring this to a me (mental pictures and memories and expectation) gives the sense of continuity of this me.Watching this without interfering brings to seeing that this me is only voice, yes.

The feeling of controlling right now and most of the time is only because there are same reactions of the body to same thoughts.

Seeing what is actually happening and thinking without a real reference point makes a different picture of the present moment.

There are moments that is also seen how the body acts without thoughts trying to reference or faster than the mind can think.

there is no real self to be found. there is no false or real self, none as in zero.  you don't contact the real self, but investigate if there is a real self.

After thought, without thought, between thought there is not self, is also funny that we call real, as if we try to split in two again.

there is no ego either.
neither such entity as mind. only thoughts arising one after another one at a time.

Ego and mind are also just thought making a goal for a seeker in the future and past (something to find, mind/me).
But how could we loose what we are? Is that also a paradox and an other concept in the end.

how to see without mind? just look, feel, sense, experience. thinking is too part of what is going on, but it's not the whole experience. there is experience happening through the senses. take a look, is there a self in seeing? in hearing? in tasting, smelling, touching? or is it just a thought?

Seeing only, without outside or inside (concept), is silent, there is only seeing.
So is for all the senses, thoughts, labeling are in addition to what happen in the moment as one.

August 7

We did not lose what we are, it's impossible. We created an illusion of what we are not and believed it to be the truth.
Is there an entity doing being or just sensation of being, aliveness, never off, always here now?

Aug 7

If I create the illusion of a separate independent self but I does't really exist, also not in thoughts, than is the mind self doing the all game and the mind self also should see that this I is only a concept? Even the believing is only memory and expectation in the mind.

Is there an entity doing being or just sensation of being, aliveness, never off, always here now?

"There is a constant feeling of aliveness, apparently OFF during the sleeping or not labelled from the sleeping mind seems.

I mean that without mind there are no memories in my experience and also no sense of being during the sleeping.

There is no entity doing the being but a false labeling of this sense of aliveness that happens independent like " i feel good' or "this is ME", only thoughts, comment, a voice that make the illusion of "me feeling".
Actually without me there is only feeling and maybe thoughts. Feeling does't need any ME to be sensed."

Aug 7

Are you aware of aliveness ever being off? Take a look in the morning when you wake up, was there a moment, where was no being?

Language is only trying to express the best it can. But it's limited. And when it's taken for granted the labels get assumed to be objects, subjects. Some labels point to objects. But what does word me point to? Anything that can be experienced through senses? Or just like unicorn- a fantasy in the head?

Take a look with each sense, is I, me in there?

Sending love.

Aug 7

Now i got lost in a stupid thing:
I just said, i smoke a cigarette and than i go back to work.
After the thought it happens that i'm smoking so the mind drives the body in same way?
It is not always automatic, the thought was before the action, is that true?

Aug 7

Can you catch, if there was an impulse to do so and the thought after, then action, or thought, impulse and action? Or none? Or all together?

When you walk from A to B, is it thought driving one leg in front of the other?
How about micro movements of the body right now?

Is thought managing breathing?

Investigate how intention, thought and action work together. Keep an open mind.

Aug 8

Are you aware of aliveness ever being off? Take a look in the morning when you wake up, was there a moment, where was no being?

Aliveness has never been off, when I get up in the morning everything is as it's always been.

Language is limited, yes. I understand what you say. Label points to an object in the sense that that object is reduced to a concept. We say car for example and immediately come with that other concept, like a car has an engine, tires etc, that is also part of the concept, another label.
We can say that in this case the thought refers to a real object, also if car, tires, red color are only words. In the same way thought says "me" but with a little investigation we can see that this time the thought refers to nothing else than a mental image, nothing real.
It's very effective to me to hear that I is a mental fantasy because it is, me doesn't refer to anything real. Me and unicorn have the same propriety only the me is believed for so long and the unicorn as always been a fantasy.

Looking at the senses is very surprising to me just because when I focus on one sense, doesn't matter which, it's clear that there is no need for any me to sense.

Sense does it's work without any self, any me, the labeling of what is sensed comes immediately later and maybe some thoughts during. When there is seeing, this seeing doesn't need any me, it's only seeing, same with hearing or tasting, the thought is saying: I see, I hear, this comes later on as comment of what is happens.

Even the body doesn't need this me to control it, we assume that we control the body but like with the example of the cigarette of yesterday, actually you were right, it's difficult to see in the beginning but first there is an impulse (nothing to do with thoughts) than a thought pretend to be the owner of the impulse and then the action.

This is much more difficult to see all the time because we take for granted that we are the self moving things but is not the truth, the impulse come like the thoughts without control and after that we label everything.

 Reading this I was thinking that:

Sometimes there is an impulse of something to do but after that  a thought comes telling to not do it and so I don't do it.
Actually even if is difficult to catch it, there must be first and other impulse stopping the first one and also thoughts are coming later and tries to take the ownership of what actually happens, just without control and owner.

Sending a lot of love and gratitude,


Hi Ilona,
Just " thought " to write you.

I'm still, as much as i can, investigating how it works between impulse, thought and action happening.
I notice how many things the body is doing on automatic, also if for example the mind is telling the story of me in other words.

I'm also watching expectation about what it is supposed to be, sometimes patterns of thoughts about the me as this body comes back, then watching deeply the content of the thought: "you are the body"- i notice that there is the body, but where is this me?


Aug 10

Cool, take a look and tell me, what is not on automatic.

Hehe, there is no "this me". That's the whole point. There never was a me, it's mind created image. Take a look closer how mind creates images and how an image is different from what is happening, what ISN'T versus what IS.

Close your eyes and imagine you are in the kitchen. Just visualize and look around, notice where things are put. See the space from different angles.
This is an image, it can trigger feelings and contractions <-> expansions.

Open eyes and see how a image can be created and explored in the mind.

Go to the kitchen and look at same things that you saw in the image, how does imagining and experiencing same things differ?

See where I'm going? Me is an image. It is not what is ever happening. THIS is what is happening.

Write to me your observations from this exercise.
Much love.


Aug 11

Hi !
Just two words, i will be back with more in the next day's:

When i tried with the kitchen image i noticed that a mental image is made of memories, it can trigger a familiar feeling. this familiarity is also based on memories and attachments of another image, that me image.
Opening the eyes and focusing only on what is seen became clear that an image in the mind is only thoughts based on memories and fantasy.

Watching the kitchen is seen that is simply as it is, things are different in the sense that are real and exactly where must be, something different from the mental image.
What is, is just what is, simply, ever new.
In these images, mind searches all the time for a confirmation for his ME, knowing that in the present moment there is no need to any me.

Back soon,

Aug 11

I'm feeling lost.

If this me is the language only, a word, that means that all the conversations we made with other people, thinking that we are thinking the answers, actually go on automatic, the mind got images and labeling to use for that and actually in most of the talking we use memories and fix pattern of thoughts.

Can there be spontaneous talking or what is not spontaneous without doer?

If I talk with my mom it's easy to see that mostly we talk about nothing or always about the same thing.
In this case the labelling and the image of me repeat it's self also on automatic.
It's like if the mind full the situation with repetitive thoughts and believes that there is a maker of that thoughts during a conversation.
Actually everything happens on automatic, also thinking, talking, moving.
The identification (that perhaps doesn't exist) is only a repetitive pattern of thoughts taken for granted, not discussed.

Who is identified with what?
All the happening is anyway seen all the time, even the mind talking, using it's skills, says i'm doing, i'm going, i have cold, that is a car, is always seen, it's a joke, all the drama that make feel shit, isn't anyway seen all the time?

Who is the believer of thoughts?
Or only repetitive thoughts?
Seen never stop, the rest goes like on automatic.

Got lost here.

Aug 12

Take a look, what is not spontaneous? What is not effortless?
Does spontaneous action require a doer?
How about all those micro movements of the body, blinking, breathing, scratching an itch, is there a manager over that?

The identification (that perhaps doesn't exist) is only a repetitive pattern of thoughts take for granted, not discussed.

Yes. All identification is assumed. Take a look, what is that identifies? Or is it all a story about identity?

Who is identified with what?

Is there a who? Is there something that word who points to?

Sending love.

Aug 13

Good morning Ilona!
I'm investigating the connection between thoughts, action, impulse/ action.
Only few considerations:

I'm watching this:
If i say: move a hand.
It can be that the hand moves, it can be only a thought passing or a repetitive thought running and running..
It can be the thought: move the hand and if doesn't happens a comment/thought: don't move the hand.
I notice after that the hand moved, thought did not tell witch hand to move, this is noticed in many other thought/happenings.

I still don't see if mind can directly command an action or not, i got confused here.
I will investigate this more and i will be back to you with the result!

So far i can see, it's true that after the decision (made without doer) mind tries to grasp the ownership but is also true that mind can command the body to do actions. In both of the cases thoughts are coming without doer- that is clear.

There is connection between thoughts and action, also if without doer, thoughts can cause feeling in the body?

No doer, no owner of the feeling but connectivity and reaction between body and mind.

Aug 12

Take a look, what is not spontaneous? What is not effortless?
Does spontaneous action require a doer?
How about all those micro movements of the body, blinking, breathing, scratching an itch, is there a manager over that?

Everything is effortless and spontaneous, the thoughts come actually later on as a comment. Like that false image of a doer is also coming later on and only in thoughts.
Coming later on means that the image of this doer is also false, actually the decision was made before that thought and without control of any doer.
This confusing me when, for example, i decide to follow or not follow some thoughts, that gives the impression that there is a decision, but also that decision is actually made before that thought is coming by itself, not by a doer.
This doer comes later always in thoughts, actually it's all labeling, like the judge, actually is only in thinking that comes up and that thought only contains a word say I or me.
Like the body is moving on automatic, reacting to the situation, also thoughts follow the same path, it's a reaction based on beliefs and expectation, this happens also on automatic.

Yes. All identification is assumed. Take a look, what is that identifies? Is it all story about identity?
Is there a who? Is there something that word who points to?

Who doesn't refer to anything, who is like me or I, show up from image of self, thoughts.
Identification only means repetitive thoughts and also beliefs have the same roots, let's say the most used pattern of thoughts, is actually not believed by anybody but repeated from the mind.


Yes, there is a decision, always the right one.
You know, when you got to choose something, there is either feeling of yes, excitement, or mmm, maybe... - that is a no. if its not yes, then it's no.
It's may take a bit of practice to recognize it, but it's not difficult at all. You know what you want, what is right in the situation.

So yes, decision happens, then mind creates a story about it. That's what mind does. It tries to understand what is going on.
Notice that in action.

If you are sitting now, stand up, (or otherwise) before reading further for the exercise.


Standing?  how did that happen? Was there a decision? Could it have happened differently?

Through the day, when you are standing up notice how that happens. It's a small decision, an action, is it mind that commands the body to stand up? Or mind describes what happened?

What is true in your experience?

Sending love

Aug 12

Hi, only few words:
I will tell you more soon.
Thanks for your help!

When i read "stand up" for the first time, all my body got an impulse, we can call decision, to stand up, like there is no need to discuss.

After I was standing, the first thought that come say:

did I decide to stand up or there was a decision?

Actually only a question, in fact, commenting what was happening before.
Got the feeling that we miss all the time the first movement of the energy that was simply ready to express.

I notice how this movement happens and is clear that thoughts are translating the happening always after that the decision was made.

What at the moment is difficult to see is this:

If i say stand up and the body stands really up, i don't see if the mind can command the body or it's a coincidence or what.
Same if i say stand and after that, don't do it, and the second case happened.
Maybe if nothing happens i can understand that it's only thoughts passing by but if first the thought and than the exact happening...,

I need to see this better. Sounds like i'm building a problem here.

I will be back to you soon, i want to repeat this exercise more times.

Wish you a sweet night!


Have you seen this video?
Neuroscience and free will

If not watch it. what do you feel about what you seen?

Take a look at this: all arise simultaneously, there is no cause and effect, as in thoughts cause action. thought and action arise from the same place, it's one flow, one movement of life. Thoughts do not make body move. try to move body with thoughts, when you walk, move your feet with thoughts, see what happens.

when you hear the sound, do you need a thought to activate hearing? when you open eyes, do you need thought to switch on seeing?
do you need thought to experience taste or smell?

Is thinking driving the body?

Take your time. No rush. Just observe what is right in front of you, experiment and write to me what you notice.
Don't worry about your english... i understand.
much love.

Aug 14

Hi Ilona ,
I saw the video…now, this is very interesting. In the case of that man, he has got 6 seconds to be conscious of what action is going to be and eventually to construct all the story about him doing the pressing of the button and believe that was his choise.
It's clear that impulses, decisions, are all coming by themselves and the later thoughts, also coming by themselves, are merely a kind of comment in between.

What is called conscious mind is only a story telling, a labeling machine that comment all the time the appearance and trying all the time to achieve the ownership of what of is going on. Without these thoughts all goes on anyway, with these thoughts all is going on anyway.

Regarding the video I only got some doubt if is true, like the scientist said, that the impulse/decision try to be in accord with what the conscious mind will like. I feel more that being one all movement of life, everything happens spontaneous according with what the situation is at that moment, without consideration of any kind.

I don`t see two minds but one movement.

Trying to move the feet with thoughts doesn't work, it becomes even ridiculous to do it, seems that the body knows already when and what to do.

It's very surprising just to put attention to the movement of the body, there is really a lot of movement and many decisions that are made before mind can even notice it.

All this makes a very different picture of this voice talking all the time in the head. You was right, watching the senses there is no I/me to be found.

More than this I don`t see at the moment, just checking what the body is doing, which comment are coming and noticing (sometimes yes, sometimes not really) when mind is telling a new or old story.

Big hug!

Aug 15

Yes, you are seeing it. Cool!

Here are a few more questions for you to explore.

How does that play in normal everyday situations?
Do you notice anything different?
What is the same?

What is driving the story? How does it get created and what is listening to it?

Sending love.

Aug 15

Hi Ilona!

The play is not separated from that situation, situation and play are going on constantly, life IS all the situations, there is nothing more.

The I doesn't exist and so the doer, no owner, that's the play.

The play is seen with more distance and so the I concept, there is less pleasure in following some thoughts because the story is seen as a story from the beginning, sometimes it's seen even fighting between thoughts as if thoughts are  trying to build stories etc.

Stories are built from thoughts, in thoughts, stories are thoughts, doesn't matter if telling about a character in an imaginary future or repeating old stories.
Reality happens in the present moment and includes everything.
The story comes up like everything else only in the present moment.
I can say nothing is changed in the appearance, but all that there is, without a point of view.

That's it at the moment.

Aug 16

The play is not separated from that situation, situation and play are only going on constantly, life IS all the situation, there is nothing more.

Well said!

So is it clear that there is no entity I that is separate from what is happening?
Are you ready for the Final questions? If no, what else needs to be examined?

Much love.

Aug 16


Let's examine the last question!

With love

Aug 16
Sweet! Here they are :)
Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

Aug 17

I spent some time with these questions, here we go, spontaneous answer:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Not, there is no me, no I to be found, no separate self at all.
All that there is is this, an ever changing present moment including everything.
In this present moment there can't be separation at all, even the concept of a me doing, only thoughts saying then repeating the word I and me, are not separate from this  moment.
That is very funny to see, a thought that is coming from nowhere, always rooted in past memories or projecting to an hypothetical future, is also not separated from what is happening here and now.
As the scenario changes all the time, thoughts are not different, they are also changing all the time, they arrive and depart.
The concept of a separate self enters in the scene together with language, before that  there is no concept of me.
It's a gradual teaching coming from the societies and also the way that the mind works, she must divide what simply is in order to analyze and describe the happening.
Funny enough now it is seen that this analytic mind, popping thoughts all the time, is always actually late from reality but also expressing in the present moment.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separated self doesn't really exist, reality knows no separation and so no separated self is in reality.
Before language there were no separated self thoughts, only life expressing, only feelings passing by, sensation, the concepts of I was not present.
After all the teachings, started in the family, school and society, a repetitive thoughts started to come and repeat the word learned- i, me.
So what was before just done, felt, seen, started to be labeled with i'm doing, i'm feeling, i see, etc.
We came at a point that this labeling was accepted as reality and was forgotten that actually it is only a convention to interact in the expression of life.
It's like if the movement of life that is flowing free, became fast and constantly labelled to a point that we started to miss and mix reality with words.
Life, expression, movement never stopped to flow free, actually included at that point also the concepts of separation as everything else and that become the new play.
It has became so rooted that thoughts as got bigger, believed and so important.

But realizing that all is coming in the present moment and by itself including thoughts and concepts, became clear that this is all there is and there is no real I, me needed or added or separated from this present moment.

All that was actually the play of separation.

In reality only the present moment exist, it is all that there is and this includes everything, the content is the present moment and nothing else.
Separation is again a concept and as a concept only a pattern of repetitive thoughts coming and passing without owner and also in this very present moment.

Reality is not affected anyway from any concept or thoughts, it includes them as what is passing at that moment.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I would like to answer only that it feels that there is no feeler but only feelings.
Feelings are, together with what there is, the present moment, like the words are simply up the page without asking for motivation or explanation.
There is a spontaneous tendency of acceptance, this doesn't depend on somebody, letting be what there is happens.
It is seen that all is one movement and not more, an expression of energy and synchronicity, there is no goal or dream to change something, to add something, to fight in the end.
Goals, dreams,desires are seen for what they are, pure imagination in the end and so is every step back or forward this very present moment, as this is all that there is.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
When reality presented  itself uncovered.
there was an understanding that mind is one of the many things that are happening in this moment.
As always been actually like this and it was seen for the first time.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
It is simply clear that decide, intend, choose and control  are concepts and life simply expresses itself flowing freely from concepts, not affected.
There are many things that are happening in this moment and you is one of this, this is what is seen, this is the uncovered reality.
The realization that as always been like this shows the reality for what it is, an ever changing present moment, one force of energy expressing, life.

In love.

Aug 19

Thank you Alessandro, beautiful!
I can see that you see. But I would like to hear a couple of examples from ordinary situations, every day life- what is the same and what is different?

How are you feeling these days? What are you noticing?

What is the biggest change?
Much love !

Aug 19

Thank you Ilona, your help in this is just wonderful.

There are really not much differences in the outside happening I would say, what is different is that everything is now seen as one happening in the moment.
Before it was actually just a following of dreams of a better future or travelling in past memories, now the focus is spontaneous in the present moment as is seen that this is all what there is and that this is complete in itself.

It is seen that mind activity is just one more happening in the moment. I'm living with a big family in a very small house (got 4 children) and the dynamic of the family are still going on as usual but everything is seen as not personal in truth.

This impersonal seeing gives a feeling of relaxation in the situation and acceptance of what is, a wave of energy passing in the present moment.

Everyday I'm facing a lot of inputs via the fact that we are living with a lot of children, money are never enough, the work I don't really like..etc etc etc. but now I don't get traped anymore in the play and I see this as a life expression in this ever present moment like watching a film.

What i notice is for example that the mind is a little more relaxed at the moment. mind is now seen for what it is and not anymore as the director of the game.

After this i can't report any special happenings, just writing this comes up that everything is special or nothing is special, all is simply adapt to the particular circumstance.

With love and a lot of respect!!

Aug 20

Nice! i recognize what you are saying. the shift is small, but it affects everything. :) it's only a beginning, of course, there is so much to explore. this is just the first step on the way to freedom.

would it be ok to post our conversation on my blog? i can use any name you like, people who read find those conversations helpful.
let me know please.
much love!

Aug 20

Thank you!
Thank you!
Thank you Ilona, you are between my best friend and you can use of course our conversation for your blog, i only will suggest you to correct some of my sentence in correct EN....

I also get the feeling that this is a beginning of something bigger and now i know where my question will get the correct answer.

We keep in contact and i follow you always!!

With love!

Aug 20

Thank you very much, brother!
It is good idea to let this sink in. Just keep noticing and looking same way as you did. It is a lot to process. You can write to me anytime, if you not sure what is going on or stuff comes up. It will. This is a beginning of deconditioning the mind, and there are lots of exiting discoveries waiting.

I will post our conversation as soon as I can, will do the best with grammar.
Much love

Aug 20

Thanks sweet Ilona, i just bring our discoveries into the hart, keep that warm..
Cause there is no other than the present moment i will keep on staying in here, it's a miracle to see all what is going on..

With love

Monday, 19 August 2013

Sam: May All Beings Awake To This

Sam is an artist and his way with words is a little bit different. It was a great pleasure to dialogue with him. Hope you enjoy this conversation.

Hi Ilona

Thanks for helping - it seems I now have a password and am able to log in - problem solved - thank you

Also great to get an email from you as I am halfway through the Gateless Gatecrashers book and I obviously recognize you from that.
even reading the book is remarkable and it's interesting to recognize so much in these dialogues

Are you still guiding people - as I would be honoured if you would help look at some of my questions ?
I don't know if I am being cheeky but I thought I would ask anyhow - otherwise I am happy to explore the guiding area.

Regardless of that - I sense it's quite a wonderful thing that has manifested - & for that their is a deep sense of gratitude and thanks for such a thing



Jul 11

Hi Sam, yes, I'm still guiding :)
We can have a chat, but first finish the book, answer as many questions for yourself as you can on your own, then we can have a conversation on the forum. Message me up when ready.

Much love.

Jul 11

Thank you Ilona

I certainly will - I made a commitment to be at a friends retreat centre in France for the next 3 weeks but that also seems a great opportunity to explore both the book and the questions that arise - there is already a deep receptivity to what is being said and can sense trust in what you're saying.

I will definitely message you when I am back

Again - a deep gratitude for all of this

Aug 7

Dear Ilona

Firstly apologies as what I am sending over is a little raw in content. I just wrote what was arising with little elaboration or little effort to 'groom' it as content. So in places it might not make sense as it's rather unconscious at times. That said it feels like a fairly accurate depiction of dipping into language when I was reading the book initially...

There is much more - as I find it quite natural just to have this manifest when there is space for it (but I think there is plenty here to give you an idea of where the I was a few weeks ago)

It starts off a little confused but seems to settle later..

Deeply - Thank you


Letter from France.....

This is like writing a letter from one part of awareness to another

Quite quickly through the book something began to happen. It seemed the dialogue was within experience and both voices - of doubt and certainty - were coming from the same ground. But the personality of Ilona was there yet what was being communicated seemed outside of that.

- An expression of the ground of awareness which spread out from the dialogue.

In my mediation I was thinking upon some of your comments and realized what you were saying was already known - or even what all teachers had said was / is always known from within as well.  And from that seed an experience of ground began to unfold  - a knowing

Concept races to keep up but it always limited by either certainty or doubt.

An apology as language becomes so clumsy - at present Sam is having a fantastic / awful / none of the above time. Quite amazing how vibrant thought becomes just on the edge of not knowing 'wow a stream of concept flows' -

The I would say their is a lingering exploration of this edge - similar to running water.

There is the stream - then there is just an instance of water

What I mean by that is their is simply is the ground of awareness from which this has arisen and then their is that which has arisen - not different but perhaps distinct.

Damn clumsy words - perhaps art would be better

So their is a tenderness to this experience - the Sam-ness feels very sensitive and keeps grasping for awakened mind in many ways - sometimes longing - sometimes fear - sometimes wisdom -  all arise as states - some are held and all ultimately pass - even the 'idea' of awakened awareness goes.

Which still makes no difference to awakened awareness - the groundless ground - the wordless state from which these words and thoughts arise -

It's easier to describe the friction that Sam-ness feels around this. One is in decisions - a sensitivity in the unfolding of the present -
choiceness choices is still interesting.

the other is self and other -  mysterious distinctions  -

and the final is time - how it exists as construct and is only available as a thought in the present.

The Sameness is still weary of words.

Other manifestations later…

I have been watching (or there is) watching Sam-ness go on retreat and why he would do that - and they seem like good and wise reasons that balance out some of the other forces that arise in the artistic life - nothing more to be said there.

but life under the microscope brings interesting frictions and how the present unfolds with the Sam-ness in it - for he is in it because I can see a pen being held - yet now without a grasping to I that seems so habitual for a me.

(again perhaps art would be better)

The second most interesting friction is the contact point we call self / other.
- from one perspective Samness resents or perhaps is afraid of all these reflected views - the eyes staring at an identity that becomes so real - and yet already in those eyes is the simple same nature that is a thing staring back at itself - a bit of the ground staring back at the same ground - and yet they are different !

the mind boggles (as it always has and does)
boggling away, popping into the running streams of thought that's source is the nameless (it needs a new name by the way)

I make my own life hard yet still there is enough generosity to make it soft. Not my generosity but life's own generosity. Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be the 'I' makes life hard but the generosity of life continuously gives the I back to itself - relentlessly generous yet no middle  - the giving void.

how mysterious.

another unfolding mystery is how time is shrinking. The present takes up further space - especially on retreat - but also in London - the idea of 'tomorrow/yesterday' seem less real throughout the plastic lens of memory - which seems to be the only lens I can find
oh that and the scaffolding of thought - with all its elaborate juxtapositions and axis - but quite artificial in outlook.

and so it goes on.
I can't go on -
yet here it is - this presence in every moment.

tired words - because we use words to touch these wonders again and again they become polished and slippery.

Take the word 'telephone' - the word doesn't tire because its use is so simple. To attribute 'phone-ness' to an object. But take the word 'awareness' it's used so often that it becomes almost a nothing of a thing - how fascinating.

I wonder at the old masters that sat through all of this - everything burnt off - the wisdom of a tree in a human heart. Which really is a wonder - a human heart that is returned to the world as a natural expression of compassion that is called life.

To re-iterate - energy / friction from the Sam-ness arises around certain places -
Relationships ( I, Other)
Time (present unfolding - thought constructed events - either in the form of memory (past) or fantasy (future)
Awakened state - a tendency for Sam-ness to either narrate awakens with 'wow amazing' and personify it into a state - which it's clearly not. Or the other and attribute it to being something that doesn't exist - and try and negate something that is clearly arising.

To put it into more simple terms -there is a dance of certainty and uncertainty.
The I has a certain inability to cope with the One and has to split it into the Other

The mind goes off to chop wood…

The I doesn't know - but wishes it did.

here is the pen writing the words - thinking the thoughts - that embody the life - that are expressed as one in this very moment.

only this

how could it not be so.

Aug 7

Hi Sam,

It was a pleasure to read your letter. You write like an artist :) creativity is pouring out of the text.

It's a great start and let's see where it takes you.

Let's begin with expectations.

What do you expect that seeing no self is about? What do you hope that will happen? What you do not want this to be?

Just write with whole honesty what feels true to you now.

Awakening is a process, it is not a state. Like river is a process, waterfall is one part of it, a curve or tiny stream at the beginning is another. States come and go, it's what arises and passes. 'Crossing the gateless gate' is a shift in perception, not a state, it's a recognition of what is already obvious.  Knowing, not understanding, the end of search and start of exploration.

It is your process and it does require some effort and work. It's good to keep the momentum going, so write to me every day, till all is clear. I may not answer each email, but I'm here for you and will respond when I can.

Let the journey unfold..
Much love.

Aug 8

Good morning Ilona

Still happy as ever to have such a gentle witness to follow this - gratitude x


{the first answer was written last night]

What do you expect that seeing no self is about?

I don't know is my first response - what it is about - I guess to have expectations is to have a final destination which is different from the one that is occurring already - and it implies there is a point to be 'got' in that something happens that isn't already happening.  and there doesn't seem to be any getting 'beyond' this - whatever this might be..

right now  'seeing no self'  is the way the light bulb over there makes a soft hum and my girlfriend is lying on her side waiting for sleep to come. Light bulb / girlfriend / me typing on a iPhone - whatever is here seems to be the only thing that seems to be occurring.

that seems like my current expectation - but maybe the I would use the word experience over expectation.

this does lead to a second question -  do I expect this present to be something ?

and to that I would say -  there does seem to be a something that is present

What do you hope that will happen?
'Hope' is such a beautiful word - it dances with possibility and change
The 'What' from the question speaks of expectation
The 'You' takes me back to the ever present occurring of right now
and 'Happen' talks of an immediacy

So to build that sentence again it could be said - The dance of possibility is an expectation that can only be felt in this very moment. Even the idea of it occurs in the immediacy of this present. beyond that there is nothing.

[I have just realized I misread the next question as  "What do you want this to be" and then set about answering it ! apologies - anyhow I liked the answer so I left it in..]

Somehow that questions speaks to my heart and is met with an open expanse
It is the combination of the longing which is found in wanting and the mystery of what 'this' is.

It's like asking what is the nature of the open heart ?

If I am truly close to the 'you' in the question I can't find that experience separate from everything else - so there is a change in the definition of 'you' here  - the 'you' is much more akin to 'all of this'. This conversation - Sam, Ilona, computers, questions, answers, responses, reading, today, the mystery of what's happening now - that is my 'you'

So if that is returned back into the sentence it reads - what does 'all of this' want this to be - and that is a beautiful question that takes makes remarkable patterns in life ! Another word close to this marriage is creation - the complexity of making and cessation.

What you do not want this to be?

So this was the actual question you asked and let's see what's different.

The 'do not' speaks to me of control - a wanting of a pattern or shape to be present - a reason or sense of things even.

And why would the I want that ?

 - because there is a need to exist !

Which ironically is what is exactly happening right now

(the) I seem nervous about the proposition of no boundaries and the I seems to have to keep touching in to or holding onto different states.

[How interesting to see - their seems to be a split that has arisen in this email with sam both manifesting the role of the knower and the role of the unknower - teacher student in a correspondence.]

Anyhow focus on the question

- the 'do not' is where I am - I mean the part of me that subtly rejects parts of my experience - and I don't like the idea of not being whole.

- what's not whole about it

- All of the negative emotions I guess - the longing / anger frustration - all those states seem too painful and that creates the gap perhaps.

Okay - and that gap feel into it.

Well it also seems beautiful - there is also a sense of longing to it that has a strange beauty or attraction - it feels that maybe the art comes from that place and it's inherent to what it is to be part of the human experience.

- and would that be denied if you let go of it ?

- are you saying I should let go of the wanting to disown the hurt / anger /

- not necessarily - just that be with it and welcome it

- yes - and that seems good.

okay so back to the question - What do you not want this to be ?

It's simple now - I don't want it to be all of the negative states that occur in experience - it seems naive to say but there is a story around them being all too painful - which with a gentleness can be seen as that - a story.

So there is still a fear in experience and not all states are seen as equal - yet in saying that - that is clearly seen.

it seems there is intention and unfolding in experience right now and a remarkable aliveness - so the answer to your question of What you do not want this to be?

This is everything - all is present - even the 'not wanting this to be'

and I can tell by how the writing is now happening this is where things are.

and this feels like a good time to hand back to another teacher's voice..



Aug 8

Thank you very much for the answers.

You say:
(the) I seem nervous about the proposition of no boundaries and the I seems to have to keep touching in to or holding onto different states.

I is a thought.
Thought does not think, it can not be nervous either.

Is thought I any different then other thoughts?
Where does it come from? Do thoughts come from I?

Is there a thinker?
Over to you.

Keep focusing, you are staring at it. We are looking at what is already obvious.  Describe what you see.

Sending love

Aug 9

Hi Ilona

Is thought I any different from other thoughts?

Amazing - and of course I is no different from other thoughts. It's went like this -

Is thought I any different from other thoughts?
no - it's a thought
and that is a thought also !
and as is this in response !
as is this whole correspondence - thinking thinking - sensation - typing to Ilona - replying with answers
(Ad infinitum)

and once that starts  - experience becomes a  "well it's a sort of lots of becomings and cessations". which is a very fluid proposition - things loose a certain solidity if they keep changing their form - the I within that included.

Where does it come from? 

This answer comes from your question which was prompted by my reflection which arose from certain thoughts that more than likely we're responses to further stimulus / memories / learning.

As your question is also a reflection of other causes and conditions - and actually to put a 'your' onto it seems somewhat misguided - as much as putting a 'my' onto this response is. Both your question and this answer don't belong to anything and they have arisen whenever the supporting ingredients are present

Do thoughts come from I?

thought do seem to have a parameter but it would be unlikely to define that parameter as a thing called I - there is a clear awareness that thoughts somehow arise - this writing has been born from thought - yet its source seems to be an interrelated movement with other things - cause / conditions - maybe could also be named as energy - unfolding  ?

And those factors would be hard to describe as a you - unless this I includes everyone / everything / all of 'this' - as a 'me' - which would literally negate it's meaning - or at least make it of no use.

Is there a thinker?

there are patterns of thought - but once again - go looking for a 'source' and you are led into another series of interrelated connections - which again would be hard to call a 'you' as they seem to be a mix of both what are seemingly internal and external phenomena.

for example 'you' are not this thought yet this thought would not be here without the 'you' that wrote the question to prompt it.

When did the cause (question) become an effect (answer) is also a similar mystery.

Describe what you see.

a glowing computer screen that has a blue question on it. the blue question is read by the eyes and is arising as thought. The sensation of writing and the movement from concepts into language - through typing - which places it back onto the glowing screen.

the causes that prompted the question and then the causes that created the answer

the breakfast cereal that feeds the body the powered the hands to write an answer

this is this.

again with much appreciation

Aug 9

good stuff, but, let's try again.

where do thoughts come from?

"This time do not think and answer from understanding, but take a look and see. Sit with closed eyes and wait for next thought, notice, where does it come from and where does it go to?

Think of a number between 1 and a hundred, can you know what number pops in the head before it pops in?
Can you stop thinking at will for half an hour?
Can you choose just thoughts you like?
What is that is listening to thoughts?
What is behind the thought i?

This work is not so much about thinking, but looking. There is a difference. If i ask you what is behind your back right now, you can answer by thinking about what is there, remembering, describing what you know is there or you can turn around look and see. That seeing does not need mind to create an image. Same with thoughts, do not try to analyse what causes them, take a look for yourself. It requires some focus, and i know you have plenty of that.

looking forward to your answers.

with love

Aug 9

this time do not think and answer from understanding, but take a look and see. sit with closed eyes and wait for next thought, notice, where does it come from and where does it go to?

it came from nowhere - there was a train passing and then the thought appeared -

 'aha a train passing - is that a thought ?' and that was a thought

sensation of hearing noise then thought about thoughts ?

and then it went into another thought - about 'is that a right answer / wrong answer to where thinking comes from' more thinking.

but I really really don't know where it comes and that thought isn't here anymore.

think of a number between 1 and a hundred. can you know what number pops in the head before it pops in?


what is that is listening to thoughts? 

I don't know - really don't know.

the I can't explain this !

 really really - a giving up -  a silence - ...

to not know means it's got to come from somewhere and all of this is not coming from anywhere....

that's not right - it is coming from other things but there is no middle to any of this - the words - the thoughts - the explanations

this work is not so much about thinking, but looking.
looking -  it requires some focus

there is a looker looking for something - seeking
and strong emotion
and writing and the table and the assistant in the studio and a busy day at work

then there is emotion - my mum ill in and out hospital - not around forever.
girlfriend who is scared in a relationship - wants to hide and drop out of it-

sensations of trying to fix and help - be of support to others. bring what useful things I have - listening, faith trust ...

same with thoughts, do not try to analyze what causes them, take a look for yourself. it requires some focus

No analyzing. I don't know what to describe - The I is looking for an idea of a no self and gets confused.

with love

Aug 9

The I is a thought.
Can a thought think?


a thought can't think

there is thinking....

more coming...

Aug 9


Is there a looker?
A witness?
An observer?

Aug 9

Is there a looker?

I am looking - he he
just a thought.\

can a thought look

Is there a looker?
looking is a thought


A witness?
I wish there was a witness

I is a thought -
can a thought make wishes


An observer?

Yes there is an observer ! Found it !! (sorry bad humor)
where is the observer -
I am thinking about it now -
so there is the thought of an observer.

Can a thought observe ?
 - no - it's just a thought -


Aug 9

Great. Now take a look at the mind as a labeling machine.

Turn your head to the left / right and notice objects around. Look what happens with thoughts- where focus goes, labeling follows.
Watch that in action, play with it.

Notice that some objects trigger story, memories, feelings arise.

Notice that you do not need anything to do, this labeling just happens.

Once you get a good feel, read this post and do the exercise.

Write to me, what you learned, what was most interesting.

Sending love.

Aug 9

Greetings Ilona

When the prefix I followed there was a more solidness within the body. So 'I  feel tired' was easier to identify in that it felt more pronounced

Then when 'there is tiredness behind the eyes' it was less distinct - present but not with contraction.

Same with the looking round and labeling - once there was awareness of labeling it took longer to find what was being looked at - a 'oh yeah basket' but it kept dividing into smaller parts - 'lid' so it wasn't so solid

Most interesting was the space that opened up without the I

Thank you for the generosity x

Aug 10

Beautiful Goodmorning Ilona

It seems like a habit that a lot of thought begins with an 'I' prefix ! He he

sat with this this morning

A thought can't think !

There are thoughts

And there are states

come and go.

There was a recollection of a very young boy (3/4) getting a birthday cake. Lots of attention towards something which was followed by  - 'there must be something everyone is making a fuss over' - and that focus began to be identified with a thought that is called an 'I' .Before that there wasn't much of a middle to experience - just things. And a very natural home like play.

The other arising was that there was a holding onto care. as if care was a thing that belonged to something - which it doesn't !

So care went free of a owner (& is still here)

beautiful, sad, profound, normal old this.

Aug 10

Morning Sam :)
Lovely day!

Yes, thoughts come up, states come up, and all pass away.
Thought is not a thinker, it's just a thought.  However it triggers feeling and feelings get labeled and that triggers more thoughts. For today take a look at this mechanism.

The connection between thought and feeling. How does it work in your experience.
What happens if you focus on raw feeling and just simply feel without naming it?
What happens if you focus on thought story, how does it affect the body?

Take a look at this- thoughts come up to be noticed, feelings come up to be felt.
Is there a feeler?
Is there a gap between feeler and the felt?
Are feelings happening to a body?

Lots to examine :)
Have fun with this and write a full report.

Much love.

Aug 10

day watching

The connection between thought and feeling. How does it work in your experience. 

there is thought.
that seems separate from emotion

emotion is felt within the body
but not exactly within the body
somehow - sensations within the space / area of body

and sensations come in many forms - heat, contractions, spaciousness...
which leads to

What happens if you focus on raw feeling and just simply feel without naming it? 

Raw feeling seem energetic without their label - it sometimes stays but mostly moves through parts of the body - jaw - left channel - heart centre - stomach - pelvis - left toes.

It also looses its name - hard to say what it is.

'energetic' - it's not literally a physical moving but there is a pronounced liveliness or vibrancy in comparison to say the area that doesn't have it - the belly has the liveliness - the diaphragm doesn't.

hard to call this a specific emotion.

What happens if you focus on thought story, how does it affect the body?
presume  thought story (above) you mean  a series of thoughts..

the body becomes more diffuse - its sense of physical space becomes less noticeable and this 'liveliness' becomes closer to the head centre. Still limbs and sitting but the specific liveliness that was called 'emotion' is not so apparent in the body any longer

the thoughts are not totally within the physical confines of skull - just more around this area of the head.

trying to have both thought / emotion exist simultaneously doesn't work.

Is there a feeler?

I can think about feeling
but the thought does not feel.

There is a thought to describe the emotion
there is a thought for talking about it.

but the thought itself has no emotion to it.

The thought 'I love her' is not felt.

The feeling 'I love her' is felt.
this time in the chest centre - a spaciousness

then without the label of 'love' it becomes the aliveness / vibrancy of spaciousness - not so much a specific thing at all.

Is there a gap between feeler and the felt?

The felt is the sensations within chest - or liveliness in a part of body - energetic and vibrant.

feeler is an arising in thought - maybe language - to label that movement. but that happens before or after the felt and but not as the same time.

The heat (urgency / excitement) is in the chest and hands but then the feeler is a thought that labels the energy as 'heat (urgency / excitement) but isn't the experience of it.

are feelings happening to a body?
Thought does not happen to a body  - the labeling that creates a name which we could say is 'sad' or 'joy' does not happen to a body.

There is movement and energy and that is experienced in awareness. there is a spaciousness around lips / cheeks / eyes -

and a thought of -  'this is a feeling' can describe that but not feel it

a thought does not feel

as in the same way a thought can not think...

blessing again Ilona

Aug 10

Good stuff, Sam :)

You say:
Is there a gap between feeler and the felt?

The felt is the sensations within chest - or liveliness in a part of body - energetic and vibrant. 

feeler is an arising in thought - maybe language - to label that movement. but that happens before or after the felt and but not as the same time. 

The heat (urgency / excitement) is in the chest and hands but then the feeler is a thought that labels the energy as 'heat (urgency / excitement) but isn't the experience of it.

Take a closer look, is there a feeler, at all. You say it arises in thought and next thing you say that thought does not feel. Which is it?

Have a look again. Just feel sensation that is present at the moment and take a look behind it. What is there?

Sending love.

Aug 10


Sorry language wasn't clear ..

There is no feeler - there is a thought that translates sensation into a word such as 'tiredness' but that does not make a 'feeler' of that thought

There might even be a thought that there is a 'feeler' but again that would be thought and a thought can't either feel or think.

So no feeler
- Either thoughts -
or energetic sensations

With love

Aug 11

I think therefore I am?
I is a thought
The I thought can't think

I is not am

How do you feel about that?
Feeling is sensation
A thought describes sensation
A thought can't feel

Thought triggers sensation
Sensation triggers thought

The pattern of these reactions makes for a thought called 'I am thinking' - again this thought does not think.

The pattern of these reactions makes for a thought 'I am feeling'. Yet there is no feeler - a thought does not feel.

There is sensation - vibrancy - movement -
Life is all here

But these words only point to it -

 These words are from a thought.
A thought does not experience this sensation of

- Vibrancy - life - 'this' -


There is no middle to be found in this experience
No central controlling agent

There is no teacher to be understood
There is no getting it from a state of confusion
There is no got it now I understand

Each of those is a thought -

A thought can not experience understanding
A thought can not experience confusion
A thought can not experience knowing

They are labels
There is a vibrancy in which all is present

But of which his sentence an only a label of.

I is not am.

Aug 11


How does it feel to see this?
Is there anything different in your ordinary everyday experience?

Much love

Aug 11

How does it feel?

Same vibrancy as ever - on a bus - sensations of movement - color - form -

Thoughts as labels -

No feeler

A thought arises 'this feels like...'

Still the thought does not feel.

Just - Vibrancy, unfolding, this

Including the labeling of - vibrancy, unfolding, this.

Just a thought

The thought still does not experience - vibrancy unfolding this -

Even though it is a manifestation of the 'vibrancy, unfolding, this'.

The short answer to the question -

Still same thoughts - which can't think
Still vibrancy - that is labeled through thought.
Sometimes as 'feelings' sometimes as 'thoughts'

So no different

Everyday experience is everyday experience

 Blessings x

Aug 12

Morning Sam.
How is it going?

Let's look at the story. How does story about Sam gets created?
When you look at the character Sam same way as you would look at character batman, what decides, what happens in the story? What drives the story? What is the difference between Sam and batman?
Is there an actor inside the character that chooses the role to play and what happens next?
What is that makes up character?

If you needed to touch Sam with a finger, where does the finger land?
Have fun with this.

Sending love

Aug 12

Goodmorning to evening Ilona !

Hope your well x (sorry it's a long one)

Also the email might have slowed down as I traveled up to my mums in Leeds after her second heart attack (a few weeks ago) and I'm being here for a while -

And also started running a 2 week workshop with these teenagers in the criminal justice system today - in a nearby town (which is a new experience for me) and both things obviously deserve attention..

That won't stop the emails - just some gaps now and again.

Also it seems poignant to re-assert writing as open heartedly and freely to make sure 'saying the right thing' doesn't creep in.

See really if there is a me to trip up?!

(Anyhow - thank you for the patience and such attentiveness on this - really)


On the train to the workshop this morning -
This was apparent -

What could normally be called 'emotions' seems to stay within the energetic sensory realm significantly more - rather than storyline head space of them - excitement - fear etc.. etc... more close to a body felt language that is different from sensation/label/emotion thought pattern...

The labeling of this does happen as thought (as I mentioned before) but it seems to be much less frequent than the vibrancy/sensory experience in the body.

Same with thoughts - they mostly pass without lingering - a few hang around to be 'seen' but they aren't often and move on when they do become so aware.

I say this as because I was short in answering your last question properly (around what's different).

So - from reading gate less/gatecrashers onwards there has been change - (gradual - opening - not sudden - [except when the Ilona/ Elena voice was experienced / became within - then there was a tangible - "oh - that's it - oh - okay - never mind" but generally after that point it's been just kind of interesting and an unfolding of experience..

things are continuously new - reading is very interesting - doesn't matter what - just interesting  - wow this is what happens when you read !

dipping into a Dhamma book is fun - it was completely new to me as if never read - and after so many years of reading that kind of thing - that's sort of hilarious ! (do I have to start again with mindfulness of breathing books..)

Actually that said - meditation is also fascinating - no one meditates ! - very weird - and retreat was new - no one had to sit it.

the other area is dialogue - its great meeting people - very exciting in that who knows what happens ! I have no idea what I is saying or what then arises - which is fascinating.

but it's hard also to explain as it's not a state - as lots of states come and go - but I would say things seem to be marked with a curiosity to all of this and a continual newness.

so that in part is a description of differences. but also when you said 'what's the everyday world like' - I cant say that anything is different - in the sense of trains, heart attacks, emotions, thoughts, personality, all seem to be doing their things as they always do.

That is a fuller answer.


As for Sam and batman - Sam has always wanted to be batman ! awesome

seriously - I want to give this a little more time - if I get more time tonight ill email tonight - otherwise soon

big hug



Aug 12

Hey Ilona

okay in response to the below -

How does story about Sam gets created?

it's made from glue and straw. sorry. the story about Sam -
here is the series of thoughts that happened in response to that question -

well the automatic response is - well - time makes who you are -
or memory.
then it was -
what is it to remember ?

Memory only happens in this present moment as a thought - which then goes back to the inevitable...

Can a thought remember ?
and the answer to that is NO.

Can a thought of Sam-ness experience anything

Can the thought of 'memory' remember

so in response to what you ask - 'the story of Sam' is a thought. it arises and passes. there is no sequence to it.

There is no story of Sam right now because that thought is not present..

When you look at the character Sam same way as you would look at character batman, what decides, what happens in the story?

I am totally missing the point on this one - sorry the sequence goes -

With Batman - the comic book writer decides what happens in the story.
Which leads to with Sam - err..  a creator god ! (sorry I can't roll with that - and also I know that's not your point)

let's try again -

With Batman - he's a fiction - no one decides what happens to him

(sorry ! I can't bring to mind batman without thinking of the culture that created him) okay - so let's go from there

Batman is a thought.
Sam is a thought.

so a decision is another type of thought ...

Takes us back to a familiar mantra
Can a thought think

Can a decision (in the form of a thought) make a decision

No decisions then.


even a sense of decision ?

no - another thought.


So to answer the question - what decides what happens in the story ?
a decision is a type of thought and a thought can not make decisions.
There is no decision to what happens in the story

What drives the story?

so the sequence goes -

the automatic response - a narrative !
so what's a narrative ?

a narrative is a sensation of time (again)

time can only be experienced in the present in the form of a thought.
again the familiar mantra-

Does a thought exist in time -
NO - only in the present

can a thought experience time
NO - time is a thought.

so the answer to what drives the story is - there is no thing driving the story.

What is the difference between Sam and batman? 

I want to say yes there is a difference ! I want to say I am writing this email - that batman isn't
but Sam is a thought.
can a thought think

so no Sam and no Batman.

and the I that wanted to say yes there is a difference ?

that too I am afraid is just a thought.

Aug 12

sorry Ilona - was only halfway through and pressed send instead of 'save now'

anyhow - to continue...

Is there an actor inside the character that chooses the role to play and what happens next?

I like the idea of a character inside - yes ! - the watcher I can call it.
but the answer is very very clearly NO - there is no character. or watcher. or witness.

What is that makes up character? 
The longer (and incorrect answer) is that it seems relationships can be seen to define character.
There is the relationship of other (me / you) with external objects - the world outside etc...
and then there is relationship with inner - what is seemingly inside (thoughts emotions)

but remove all relationships (both inner and outer) and there - again - clearly - there is no middle to this.

If you needed to touch Sam with a finger, where does the finger land? 

this can be explained (again incorrectly) as a finger pointing to all the things that Sam has a relationship with

a finger for family
a finger for friends
a finger for objects both animate and inanimate

a finer for each of the senses
a finder for energy and sensation
a finger for emotion
a finger for thought

I say incorrectly because - there would then have to be a pointer - and the pointer can only come from one of the above categories - either as thought (pointing) - or sensation (hand movement) - or physical object (finger) - and clearly there is no pointer because a pointer can't point to itself - to touch something there has to be a toucher - and there clearly clearly isn't.

so again - after all seven questions  - and throughout all of this correspondence -  the only thing that can be said is THERE IS NO MIDDLE TO THIS.

there is nothing to be found
and there is no looker to find it

with much much love

Aug 12


So... Can you say that YES, it's clear, that separate entity I, me, does not exist?
If not, what else needs to be looked at?


Aug 12

deeply deeply with heart

there is knowing

I does not exist.

the echo of effort has taken some time to fade but your gentle requests have been amazing in the loosening up to THIS.

the tiredness of doubt has gone.

please - please - may all beings awake to this
 - that really  is is all.

Aug 13

Ah, beautiful...

It's only a beginning, a fresh start, there is so much more to explore.

I think we can wrap this up. Sounds that you trough!
Are you ready for the final questions?

Sending love.

Aug 13

Absolutely - feel free to ask away x

Aug 14

Sweet! Here they are :)

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

Aug 14

Thanks Ilona - tomorrow is 13 hour day with the kids so I won't get onto this until Friday / weekend

But get onto it I will !

Much love

Aug 18

Dear Ilona

for ease of reading and simplicity - I am writing with an I prefix in a linear narrative for the first part of this email as it makes more sense that way

to be able to answer these first questions it seems appropriate to tell you a little about myself and fill out more of the story... I also answered in a different order - hope that doesn't confuse things -

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

I guess it easiest to start about 7 years ago when I was introduced to the Longchen Nyingthig Ngondro (a series of preliminary practises in the Tibetan tradition) by UK Lama called Lama Lhakpa Yeshe . It took me till now to work through them and I still greatly benefit from them. Concurrent to that I was also maintaining a regular mindfulness practise with included Vipassana retreat (Mahasi method) and solitary retreats.

A couple of years ago I stated doing a Dzogchen / Mahamudra practice with a teacher called Daniel Brown (based in the US) - which significantly changed the nature of 'practice' and the nature of mind - the main preliminaries were ' emptiness of external phenomena / emptiness of time / emptiness of self' - and all of them had a significant impact - yet there was still patchiness in what is called the 'view' in that system. (that said their was a 'view' emerging)

Which is when I discovered your website - a friend recommend it and I guess I was interested because of the 'direct pointing dialogue' was something that seemed familiar to me from Dan.

(that’s not to say that the teachings Dan offers are not very profound - they are incredible)

Anyhow - so when I finally got round to reading your book it began to feel like drinking water - in that there was no effort in understanding it and very quickly the embodiment of what was being said began to be heard internally as much as it was externally - by the third or fourth conversation a definite shift was happening.

It was remarkable in how unremarkable it was as an event - it was like 'oh - okay REALLY ? - yep - oh okay." Kind of unbelievable in a small sense. Yet there was a 'before the experience' and 'after the experience' that was unmistakable - there was / is a freshness to the lived moment that seems very raw - and - 'oh this is new' to everything that seems to occur.

it also seems the thought of 'I know this' has disappeared.

(Sorry I've changed tense)

There doesn't seem to be a central agent by which to orient things around. For example - at work when one of these violent teenagers asserts "what’s your fucking problem" (that have quite strong behavioral problems) I can't really find the 'me' to have a problem - and all I can say is "I don't know - really" and that seems funny (not that I would tell them that) - yet through this exchange there seems to be a sharing of this enquiry - a "yes your angry okay that’s present - but a 'my reaction' isn't - sorry" and the energy shifts. It seems that when strong emotional content asserts itself there isn't this central other to meet it. Sure there are emotions involved - but a central agent there isn't.

They have actually begun to say Sam "don't give a shit". And in one sense that is true - I don't care about the aggression they try on - I don't care about their belief in their own low self-image. But the only thing I don't add (which I can add here) is how amazing they also seem - there is a realness and honestly and just rawness to their beings that makes them unreliably alive - as if electric almost - and that is beautiful.

So there doesn't seem to be a central control agent and most of the everyday has a wonder and mystery to it - beyond the tone of good or bad - its seems quite mysterious and unknown - and the word that seems closet to this experience is  - wonder.

I digress - but that is a little of what it feels like.

In the narrative thread of the last few weeks - after reading the book - there was a lot of confusion around 'thoughts about experience' and actual experience. And when we (electronically met) and began these dialogues things began to clear up.

The first thing that was incredibly useful was that here was a place in which the experience could be held outside of me - in the sense two of us were involved.

That and you knew what you were talking about!

But the second significant shift was when you sent an email in response to my confusion around thinking - literally letting the realization of the following two lines sink in -

The I is a thought.
Can a thought think? ….
no was the answer

and for me just went further and further down… and it became an amazing Koan for clearing up so much clutter. As I see from re-reading the dialogues - it becomes the last stop before everything gets off.

another element from the dialogue that was useful was the distinction from energetic patterning within felt experience and the thought that follows it called an 'emotion'. again this same Koan appears

Can a thought that labels something as an emotion - can it feel ?

no was still the answer.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

The simply immediate  - intuitive - answer is No - really really NO - there is no separate entity 'self'

but I want to respect and honor the enquiry, so below is a more explored answer ...

For arguments sake lets say 'yes' there is and in it's defense the I could say "there is a mysterious sense of self that is the culminated connections of thought, feeling, sensation - and it's those combined elements that make up kind of a 'smudge' of a thing that could be called a Sam"

The question arises then - so where is that statement coming from?

Is that statement separate from the 'smudge that is Sam' that is identifying it ?

and if so  - is Sam now 'the smudge' plus the 'thought that identified it' ?

And from then on the argument for self becomes weaker - how can this changing description of 'self'  be real ?

This continues to more and more elaborate descriptions of self yet still no solidity arises. And at some point there has to be a question about where all these descriptions are coming from - and the answer is 'they are all thoughts'.

And from then a shift occurs from 'thinking about thoughts' to actually simply looking at what a thought is from lived experience - where it comes from / where it goes / what 'shape' it has - and all of those question reveal more and more until ultimately - you realize - or someone points out to you - non of these thoughts  - within themselves  - can think!

however sophisticated, post modern, clever, self referencing they are - they simply do not have cognition within themselves

which means there is no thinker having them !!

which is hilarious - the answer still makes me laugh - it's really really funny.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 

There seems to be a feedback loop between either thought / emotion - or thought / though or even emotion / sensation that triggers more thoughts / emotions to fire again. And it creates a seemingly endless loop of experience - and somehow that continuity of reactions is mistaken for a thing called "I".

Similar to a flick book of a man running - it seems like the man is running on the page - yet whenever you look at one page it can only be a static image of a man on a page. And so it is the same with us  -  a series of thoughts are mistaken for a 'continuity of thought' that becomes attributed to a 'thinker' or a 'me'. Look carefully - or watch this present moment closely enough -and you will see that each thought is unique and present in this very moment - but never before or after. No thought exists in the future - no thought exists in the past.

'ahh here is me thinking'  - again a single thought experienced in the present.

There is no thinker of that thought.

so again - thoughts around a separate self can arise - but they are only thoughts

there is not thinker to think them. There is no separate self.

again - this is very funny.

It might be then pertinent to ask what energizes these 'thoughts' into existence - but the only word I can find for that at the moment is 'life'. It's the same thing that makes the sun shine / moves clouds / powers computers - it's the manifest - manifesting - it's certainly does not belong to an anything or have any inherent single form.

 5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

The story of Sam can be experienced - but only in the present.

To have a chooser - it would have to come from a series of events that were from the past that influenced something in the future.

Experience tells me the only time a decision is made is within in the present.

so yes choices are made (in the now) -

but no chooser makes them

There might be a sense of a chooser making them which would be a thought like "Ahh I made a decision"

but did that thought actually make the decision ?

or did that thought just described the decision that was made ?

The thought pointed to the aliveness of the decision - but in pointing to it, it  is not what it points to.

again there is no "I" here to decide.

 An example of this is…

as I write - I can not tell you that I have decided to write because at this moment there is only writing.

Once my writing stop perhaps a thought will arise that will say "ah I wrote that"

but really did the thought "ah I wrote that" write the words ?

No - that thought only points to the fact of writing - it is not the writing in itself.

It is a label pointing to the vibrancy of life - it is not life itself.

6) Anything to add?

I think the only other things that seem pertinent right now is something I said earlier -

the echo of effort has taken some time to fade but your gentle requests have been amazing in the loosening up to THIS.

the tiredness of doubt has gone.

please - please - may all beings awake to this

So thank you - so deeply.

On our fridge we have a phrase ‘cultivate what surrounds you’
and in the light of this dialogue perhaps it should read,
“all is what is around you”
which feels so important to be with right now
and that is where this awakening is right now.

 much much love.

Aug 18

Hi Sam.

Really enjoyed reading your answers. I like that you put them in your own order and answered in full. I can see that you see!! Delightful and funny, I have a huge smile on my face as I'm typing this.

I love your unique way of thinking and putting experienced in words. I'm very curious how this seeing will affect your art!

Of course, this end of search is a beginning of exploration and the fun ride is only starting. I would love you to join unleashed Facebook groups, there are many that seeing this and it's great to share or get support when needed. Things come up and clearing process takes time.

Would it be ok with you to share this conversation with readers of my blog? I can use whatever name is comfortable for you and if there are any details that you would rather not share, they can be taken out.  

Sending you lots of love and a big hug.
Wooo hooo!!


Hiya Ilona

Yes me too - I am fascinated to what kind of art a no self makes .. manifest manifesting I'm sure !

It will take a few months or so before it begins to materialize in the public world - but I already know the poem / statement in an email towards the end - that began with 'I think therefore I am' is the seed from which it will grow.

I am also really grateful you managed to navigate my slightly dyslexic explanations and see what is so deeply felt.

That has always been a great difficulty in my life - sharing what is known in a language that can be understood (hence the art I guess)

And I would greatly enjoy joining a Facebook group around this - I am certainly fascinated by what is happening ..

A massive - large - shared - resounding - smile of a

Woooo hoooo

Oh yes - pls feel free to use my name.

There's no one behind it anyhow x


Sweet! Thank you very much Sam. I will put this on the blog today. Then if other guides have any questions I will pass them in to you. If not, then I will invite you to FB groups. :)

Have a great, creative day.

Much love