Wednesday, 22 February 2012

For Michelle A Click Happened While Listening Radio Interview

I loved working with Michelle, she is such a sweet girl and amazingly all became clear for her while listening my recent radio show on Wizard's radio. Thank you John Troy and Trip :)
( you can find the recording on LU website Audio page )

My story is mostly just dealing with depression. For a long time, I didn't believe anyone would be able to help me. And no one did. But I've read some of your amazing dialogues with people on Marked Eternal. I'd appreciate very much if you would talk with me.

Thank you for stepping in, Michelle. It is my pleasure to help you to resolve this. All that you need to do is answer some precise questions and get back to me at least once a day, stick to the process till the end and be completely honest, like you never were before.

So what do you expect from this conversation?
How do you imagine it will change your life?
What do you want to gain from this?
Answer in full, when ready.

By the way,what country are you in, I'm in uk, it helps to know the time difference.


Thank you, Ilona.

I expect this conversation to make me look at truth that I haven't seen.
I imagine I won't believe in suffering anymore, which will allow more happiness to be experienced.
I want to gain freedom from my present, difficult mental consciousness of self and world.

USA, EST - It's Sunday, 11:00 a.m. Grateful this is happening. ♥

Great, but let's leave your expectations right here for a while and take a look with fresh eyes.

Tell me precisely what feeling comes up, where in the body, when you let this thought in :
There is no separate self at all in reality, no doer, no thinker, no watcher, no observer, no experiencer. None as in zero.

Let's see where you are at.

Much love.

I feel relief with that thought. (I took it to sleep with me last night and it was there when I woke up, too. I like it.)

I feel energetic movement inside my stomach area, just above my belly button. Slight nausea with it. (I feel that frequently in meditation, too. A pulling upward sensation, with some nausea.)

I don't notice emotions. Movement in the head region, pressure there, around my eyes. Warmth in the heart region twice so far.

thank you for answer, great, we can move forwards. anytime there is a bit of fear or frustration coming up, just let me know, we will work through it. so far it seems that you are open and ready.


where do the thoughts come from?
can they be controlled?
can a thought be stopped in a middle?
is there a thinker?

please answer in full.

Thank you, Ilona. I will let you know if I feel anything uncomfortable or dark.

Where do thoughts come from?

It seems like they appear in the center, coming up from somewhere, I can't see where. Whereas reading your words or repeating them is more at the top of my head. I can feel that, it's more forced, like an exertion. (Unclear thinking has been a problem here for some time, by the way.) I noticed when I was looking for thought, a soft moving of air perception, like moving water or air, opening out, flowing. I couldn't see anything in there.

Can they be controlled?

No. They don't obey commands or requests, and they move through any imagined or invented obstruction or suppression techniques I've tried.

Can a thought be stopped in a middle?

I don't know. Looking for a middle of a thought, to try to stop it. Funny trying to find the "middle" of one. No, it seems like the whole thought gets through. Attention can be turned away in the middle of thoughts about a subject, but I don't know what happens to the thought(s) after that. My meditation practice includes looking away from thoughts. So I've been working with that.

Is there a thinker?

A thinker who makes the thoughts or thinks them out? I don't see one. There does seem to be something that pays attention to and gets involved with thoughts. Life in me does that. And then it's the sufferer. That's the only thinker that I know of. I don't know what thinks the thoughts or doles them out before they appear to me.

Ilona, I sat with each of your questions and asked them of myself and waited for looked answers. I know I didn't get any truly clear or certain answers. I really don't know anything. I hope these will be okay.

Good good, but I need you look deeper. Deeper than that. Where do thoughts come from? Just wait for next thought and catch it right as it appears.
You say that there is a sufferer from which thoughts appear. Isn't that just another thought?

There is a sufferer here
There is no sufferer here

^ both are equally just thoughts.

Can you tell if thoughts appear on automatic or do you actually need to do something to make them come?
Do thoughts control body? Or are they just labelling what body does?

Spend some time watching the thoughts with curiosity and write answers when ready.

Thank you!

Thank you, Ilona.

What I meant to say was that a sufferer seems to appear here from following or going along with thoughts. It seems to result in confusion and suffering here. But I can apply what you said to that, too. Yes, both are equally just thoughts. "There is a sufferer here. There is no sufferer here."

...[I} need you to look deeper. Deeper than that. Where do thoughts come from?

I went to work today and have been doing my best to look deeper all day. It's like looking into dense fog, asking the question and trying to see or notice where thoughts come from. They appear out of nowhere. There are image thoughts and word thoughts. The word thoughts narrate or judge appearances or label them. I noticed the labelling is automatic and mostly instantaneous. I don't have to do anything for that to happen. The labelling is frequently very simple, mostly just the colour or the name of the object. The image thoughts seem to trigger word thoughts about the image.

It does seem that I can choose what I want to think about. For instance, I'm going to think about dogs right now and name a bunch of different breeds of dogs. I'm not really going to name them. It's just an example. Or types of flowers. And go through the names of flowers I remember. Or I can think the word "I" and look and see where it comes from. I feel that thought "I" in my heart region pretty strongly. I don't know if drawing from memory is considered thinking. Sometimes a poem memorised many years ago will pop up in its entirety. Is a memory considered a thought? They come out of nowhere, too.

Thoughts label what the body does both as the body is doing it, and before the body does it. A thought appears, "I'm hungry." Eventually, the body goes and eats. It labels the shampoo, soap, etc. in the shower. Each thing it is doing. Or it labels it first and then does it. Often it says "I have to" or "I gotta" do this or that. Sometimes the action follows, sometimes "I have to" or "I gotta" isn't followed by action of the body. Like laundry that isn't done, even though the thought appears to do it or that it should be done.

I feel extra cloudy today. It all seems to congregate in my head/mind, and chest area, so there's not much room for thinking. Except for an occasional break, this has been my usual state for years now. I realise that's just a thought, too. A descriptive one of the experience here.

I'll keep LOOKING. Any suggestions about where exactly or how I'm to be looking?

Thank you,

Great, thank you.

You say that you can choose what to think about. It's also just a thought- I can choose what to think about.. Take a look. It's all just thoughts.
And with the hunger thing- first there is a feeling in the body then thoughts pops up. Take a closer look here too.

Ok, next step we examine the labels themselves. Notice that thoughts point to things that are actually here and also things that aren't here- memories, future, imaginary stuff, fantasies. For the mind there is no difference. But today I want you to look what thoughts point to real things and what to imaginary. Thoughts are either pointing to real or other thoughts about unreal.

Real is that which can be sensed and do not disappear if you stop believing in it.
Like thought keyboard. It's points to the thing that is being felt as you type.
Thought fairy points to a story about fairy which unfolds as thought train about it.

What does thought 'me' point to?
What does thought 'I' point to?

Hi, Ilona. That's true about hunger. Definitely notice that. Yes, it is all just thoughts.

There were a lot of thoughts today. When I woke up fresh and read your message one of the first things I noticed was a strong aversion to what you described as real. The things at hand, the keyboard, the cup, the clothing. Things. Thoughts came up like: I don't like them. I don't want them. they're nothing. They don't mean anything. I felt sad about trying to understand, see, or know these things as reality. I did feel some of the edges of the sadness disintegrating as I continued to accept the exercise. You know, that this is what is needed here as part of this process.

Then there were remembering thoughts. And a question: They don't mean anything, compared to what?

It was very busy at work today, a co-worker was out sick yesterday and today, so there wasn't a lot of time to practise distinguishing between the different kinds of thoughts. There was time in the morning before work and during an hour lunch break, which was devoted to this. Thoughts pointing to past, tomorrow, future, right now, wishes. They were all just thoughts, yes.

Last night, I used your suggestions (for dealing with fear and other unpleasant feelings) that I found in other dialogues on Marked Eternal on the fog I mentioned. Is that alright? I know you didn't say to do that, but I just wanted to be clearer for this process. Some things happened, totally subjective, internal, more feeling experiences than thoughts. Weird, really. I wouldn't say it was completely successful, but after the come closer, thank you, share your wisdom, I asked what it was protecting me from. This is what came up: Reality.

I actually did feel clearer today, at least until a staff meeting at the end of the day which was irritating for me. That should fade out soon.

I'm going out for dinner in a little while and will continue practising distinguishing between what different thoughts point to.

As far as the thought me, what it points to, I initially noticed many memory thoughts pointing to what isn't here now, past images about "me", this body appearing as me in the world now, and further inward a lot of nothing. I enjoyed looking at the endless nothing it points to more than the thoughts. The thought "I" points to my heart centre. It feels more in front of where the "me" thought points to, which is more inward. I know that sounds strange.

I wanted to make sure to write this response now, in case I'm very tired and fall asleep later. Thank you, again, Ilona. Good-night. ♥

Thank you for answer. Yes you can read some other conversations, it may be helpful, no problem here, as long as you keep looking for yourself and not taking anything in as a new belief.

Explore the meaning. Does anything mean anything?
What does table mean? Or what does flower mean? How is meaning assigned to things? What is the influence of memory over that?

Does life mean anything? Does it have to?
Dig here for a bit.

Much love.

Okay, thanks. Just getting this message after work. Used yesterday's assignment today and while I sat in the car for about an hour after driving home from work. Tired. Will dig and look with these new instructions. Thank you for love.

write when you ready, michelle.
sending lots of love your way.

Hi Ilona,

"Does anything mean anything?" No.

Thoughts appear about function (what a thing can be used for), like a table can be used to put other things on top of, to sit at to eat food. A flower can be looked at, seen as pretty, used for decoration, make perfume, etc. But those are just thoughts that don't mean anything.

Meaning is what seems to light something up to attract appreciation. I remember thinking and believing the meaning of life was love. Love = enjoyment, happiness, keen interest, fascination, delight. Memory doesn't seem to have any influence on assigning meaning, other than remembering life being lit up so that present thoughts can compare it to not being lit up. Remembering light in the dark. Memory is useless. Not even comforting.

I don't want to imply that there hasn't been light here since the major darkness happened, a sunrise on the inside, nothing to do with outside, appeared a few times. But it seemed so brief each time. So I'm writing about darkness because I know that better right now and for the most part. The meaning assigner seems to be broken here. No power to light anything up to be appreciated. Like a light bulb that is blown out from too much electric current. Everything becomes dark. Empty of meaning.

Does life mean anything. No.
Does it have to? No, because it doesn't. And no, if it doesn't.

The sense of separate self, which is a lie, is what causes suffering. This is becoming more pronounced and clear. Keeping to truth, that there is no self in reality, chasing "I" thoughts down, "Who said that, is that a self?" to look at them and watch them disintegrate. Liking that, kind of funny. :) Decent day.

Thank you, Ilona. ♥

You are most welcome, dear Michelle.

The sense if separate self is a lie, it's just an innocent misunderstanding that has been programmed into us since we learnt to speak.

The sense of being/ aliveness + label 'this is me' is what created the illusion. Seeing that label itself is not a real entity to which life happens, breaks the spell.

If you get a chance to sit in a park for half an hour and simply notice the totality of movement that includes everything around the body and the body itself, observe the naturalness.. Try to find that line which separates you from everything else perceived. Close your eyes and test if you can know where are the limits of the body, what size and shape it is, where is the centre.

Will be waiting for your answer.
Much love.

Hi Ilona,

Nothing happened at the park. No noticeable shift or difference in perception. The temperature was very cold, and it was difficult to relax 30 minutes on the cold metal bench. Shivering happened, even with coat, gloves and hat. Read your message, which was printed to bring along. Looked at everything around, the totality of movement as best as possible, children, sky, trees, birds--ducks and seagulls. Remembered your word "naturalness" and looked to see it everywhere. Asked the labeller why it was labelling things, looked without labels, too. Looked inward and around with eyes closed, feeling for edges of the body. Could feel the jeans freezing against the legs and where that ended. Not very clearly defined edges elsewhere. Didn't notice a centre of the totality, but there seemed to be warmth in the mid-section of where the body appears which became a focal point and seemed to allow the length of time needed for the exercise. Now, at home, the same mid-section feels cooler. I had a stomachache earlier in the day, which went away after about an hour, and headache---and still felt the headache pretty strongly at the park. Noticed where the intense pressure and clogged fullness of that seems to be and seems to end. (Lots of headaches here for many years, by the way. Pain reliever is rarely used, though, because they don't seem to be typical headaches. Nothing abnormal showed up in head/brain scans, either.)

Is questioning the "I" thought/labeller, just the "I" thought/labeller questioning itself? Can the "I" thought (thoughts appearing in general) operate in favour of truth?

Looking, no matter what. ♥

Thank for your answer dear Michelle.

Two things popped out from it.
1. You have been expecting for something to happen. Nothing is going to happen. The shift is so subtle, that you won't even notice it. Only when looking back you may see later that it happened. So don't worry and don't expect a sudden insight, a sonic boom or cosmic download. ( would be nice ) Relax about the shift. it's already happening as a whole process. Notice that.

2. You say I thought/ labeller.
Look closer here. There is no labeller. But labelling process that is on automatic as a function of the mind.
I thought is not a labeller. I is a label itself. Can a thought be a labeller?
I see, I hear, I feel is how action is labelled. I is part of a 2 word label, that's all. Only because this is how grammar is constructed.

I type- typing is happening - does this action change if it's labelled with or without I?

Great work! And sorry about the cold in the park :) You are very close now.

Hi Ilona,

That's true, I was looking forward to seeing some sort of unification or colour intensification at the scene at the park. :)

"I type- typing is happening - does this action change if it's labelled with or without I?" No, it's the same action happening, regardless of label.

You noticed my aversion to typing I, me, and mine?

"Can a thought be a labeller?" No.

After I read your message this morning, "I" got up and sat over by the window and the thought appeared: "I can't wait to feel grateful." Just then, "I" felt an energy burst at the nape of "my" neck, and a more relaxed feeling.

I noticed my reactions to people are somewhat different today. Less concern, stress, and irritation about how to respond in a meaningful way when I honestly don't perceive any meaning. It's helpful to know that nothing, least of all an "I" that doesn't exist, is in control of what is experienced, thought, or felt here. There is less guilt and frustration about not being able to control it.

I am appreciating this truth with you, Ilona. Thank you. ♥


I feel very happy and smiling now once I read your message. :))

Looks like you ate stepping through nicely.
Tell me what is that 'I' that you referring to now, when you use it?
Is there a separate entity 'me' at all in real life, in any shape or form? Was there ever?

Sending love!

Dear Ilona,

Today was a lot more difficult than yesterday. Early on, there was some spaciousness, which confirmed nothingness here. But later in the day, there was a great big blob of uncomfortableness, right where the upper body and head here appear to be, covering and rendering the mental faculties almost inoperable. It's an impersonal blob, they always are. It has nothing to do with what is going on in the story here. For the most part, it is the story, since functioning is so difficult with it.

This happens so frequently here. Thousands of times over the last ten years. So today, I did my best to remember the truth that there is no me, no separate self at all in reality. There is no me, how can nothingness suffer anything? Several times, I used your method for fear. I wasn't able to look behind or up under it. It is felt more in the frontal area here, so when you say look behind it, do you mean inward or outward? I wound up just looking straight down into it, saying, "Is there a self there in nothingness? It seemed to cut it by a third. Will get back to it after writing this.

Do you have any suggestions?

What is struggling, thinking something can be done about this? Nothing is doing that?

"I" is whatever is typing this. Nothing feeling something it's not enjoying.

Intellectually, I've learnt the answer with you. No, there is no separate me at all in real life, in any shape or form. And there never was. But I don't have a liberated view of the mind and it's workings and the character Michelle in the story, or a sense of humour about it.

I'm sorry that I'm definitely not seeing "it" clearly. Not feeling liberation today.

Still looking, no matter what. Thank you, Ilona. ♥

Look at the blob as a cloud. It passes away, regardless if you mentally push it, try to modificate it, will it away, accept and look behind, blob rises and fades. Can you just let it be here when it comes? You can ask the blob, what is it that he wants to tell you, speak to it. And don't try to get rid of it. Instead thank it for coming and listen to it's message.

See how that turns out.
The goal here is not be free from blob, but experience the blob without judgement. Then it looses power over you can not bother anymore.

How is it going today, dear?

Sending love.

Dear Ilona,

I felt a lot of support through today, at work and after. Thank you so much for help with this. It moved more centre, the feeling here was more centred...not so out of alignment, so to speak. I said thank you for coming and listened a lot but it didn't say anything yet. Accepting, listening...

Happy Valentine's Day, Ilona. I appreciate you, this, so much. xo ♥


glad to hear that there is some acceptance and feeling of being more centred. i like to approach feelings and emotions as if they were my friends that come for a visit. it makes it easier to release. how is it going today?
much love.


Hi Ilona,

The pattern for many years has been that it seems to take about three days for each blob "friend" to clear and the end of it is noticed as cool, peace energy moving in the forehead area where the brain/usual mental faculties used to seem to be. Sometimes there is barely a break in between before the next blob fuses in. It's perceived differently from emotions and feelings that arise in the personal story of Michelle. And it's much harder for blobs to clear if there are personal upsetments, as the feeling of the two mixing is far worse. Hard to explain. And it doesn't really matter, because...

While still in the midst of clearing here, something happened last night. About one or two a.m., I went to bed listening to your December radio interview with John Troy. Toward the end of the hour, something extremely clear and simple that you said made me look up to the left at an "I thought" that was appearing there, and there was a click. Literally, a click sound. It clicked off and it was quieter here.

This is what you said that made me look: "There is this thought I and once you see that I is just a thought, you see that thought itself does not think."

I've never been much into sports and don't watch football, but a good example would be if the volume of the sportscaster's voice was suddenly clicked off while watching a football game on TV, you could quietly watch the action of the game without the loud, overpowering voice and interpretation.

So the option is available to just look. And the option is available to delve into thoughts/memories, because they are still there. Here, it's like the thoughts are muffled under a pillow. That's why it's quiet.

Thoughts of truth (There is no separate self in reality at all, no me, etc.) make space here. Too many regular thoughts still feel confusing and uncomfortable.

Thank you for truth and love, Ilona. ♥ Valentine's Day. :)


oh wow. that is a very interesting turn. :)
how is it feeling today? does thought I still feels like a thinker or is it seen just as another thought? please write more about it.

sending lots of love.

Hi Ilona,

Definitely, the thought I is just another thought...under the pillow. It can come up to appear to speculate and entertain with other thoughts, memory thoughts, and try to put things together for "understanding" about the story of Michelle, to solve the mystery of how strangely reality expresses as her, but it doesn't know anything. Meanwhile, there is a falling in love with nothing here--identifying with nothing, trusting in nothing, seeing and feeling that nothing is best, desire to see and know nothing where every false sense of self is felt or perceived.

Thank you, again, Ilona...this has been the best help. xo ♥



all identity is assumed. identifying with nothing is also identifying, that is not the end... there is no you at all as in zero, you don't exist as nothing. nothing is, but it's not you. can you take this next step and see if it's true? everything/ nothing is, but does any of it require a 'me'?

sending lots of love...


Hi Ilona,

Is zero less than nothing? No-thing feels true, because it feels better and easier. More so yesterday than today, because doubt thoughts today. Did I use an inadequate word in the description? I looked it up to see:

Nothing - 1. Not any thing; not any being or existence; a word that denies the existence of any thing; non-entity; opposed to something. The world was created from nothing.

Everything does not require a me. Nothing does not require a me.

After looking all day, I haven't noticed a next step to take that is true or truer or feels better. (Headache and more cloudy today.)

Thank you. ♥


See if you can simply relax. This may take some time to settle. There is nothing 'you' can do to see the truth of it. And focus on truth, not on what feels better. Just relax and keep an eye on the obvious.

Thoughts of doubt are also just thoughts. Examine the mechanism
Itself. How does it work, what is behind, is there a who to which doubt belongs to.

Take it easy today. Rest.

Sending love.

Thank you, Ilona, that's a good idea. My coworker was out again, so it was very busy today, but I have a few days now to relax. Today was good, though.

I just want to clarify here, in case anyone reads this, that the click of liberation that I wrote about on February 14th was just one click. Reading it now, it looks like I wrote that there was a click and then it clicked off. No, it was just one click, like a camera click, when I looked at an "I thought" with suspicion and knowledge of the truth that I had just heard you say. It was so clear and instant.

I have no doubt about this, it already happened. Especially here, I'd expect it to take time to settle. Every slight or certain improvement and decrease in discomfort is keenly noticed and deeply appreciated.

Thank you, Ilona. Goodnight. ♥


Thank you, Michelle :) my heart fills with warm feelings as I read your message.

Looks like you are ready for the final questions :) so we both see clearly where you are

1. When you say I where does word I point to?
2. Is there a self at all in real life in any shape or form? Was there ever?
3. How and when this illusion gets created and how it sustains itself?

Please answer when you ready.

Sending lots of love.

Hi Ilona,

1. It points to another thought, that I is a thought.
2. No. No.
3. We're introduced into it at birth and conditioned through childhood to identify with a body/mind/thought as self, and the illusion sustains itself with an "I" mechanism/virus in the mind that keeps us seemingly magnetised, leashed, imprisoned, or encapsulated in the mind, which is a false sense of self and separation and the cause of suffering.

Thank you. ♥


How does it feel to be liberated from this illusion?
How would you explain about it to a friend who never heard about it before?

Sending love...

Hi Ilona,

I was just talking with a friend about this last night. It's true, the life and story are the same and whatever seemed to be happening before is still happening, but it's better in several ways. First and most important here is that the experience of suffering is different with the truth of no self. It's the answer I was looking for. 

The second is that the feeling of external spiritual seeking and needing something is gone. For instance, I can watch videos of Adyashanti and Mooji and not feel they have something I don't, and I can appreciate the expressions on their faces when they talk about no-self because I understand what they are talking about. 

The third is kind of funny because I've never been much into affirmations, but I've noticed that I can say all kinds of good things about Michelle, a million different things if I want to, even if they aren't apparently true in the story, and there is nothing contradicting what I said or pulling up thought evidence to the contrary. The words are just spoken and nothing touches them. This would be appreciated by anyone who has ever read self-help books and tried to use the suggested positive affirmations, to absolutely no avail. Nothing is saying anything negative about Michelle here.

I would tell my friend that there is a very simple way to feel better and live easier. I would share some of the above, and suggest they read your book or some of the dialogues on this website to see for themselves if they would be interested.

I have a lot to be grateful for, Ilona. Thank you so much. xo ♥

I'm so happy to see that you are through. :)))
Thank you for engaging into this and thank you for diving right in. Lots of love and appreciation here.

I recommend to join our Facebook group, as question and doubts may rise it helps to clear and stabilise. Everyone in that group has seen the same as you. Great place to meet new friends. click on this link and apply to join. If you do not have an account, create one. I'm looking forward to see you there.

Meanwhile we can still talk here a little if you want. :)
Sending love.

Ilona, I'm so glad to be part of this. You've been the best friend to me and I'm so grateful. Thank you. ♥ Yes, I am there at after care!!! :) I sent my request to join and I'm very interested to have support with clearing and stabilising and to be there with the others.

With Love,

It was my pleasure to work with you, you have been great!
Looking forward to know you.

Much love.

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